On QC shootout -- a justified killing incident or not?

I understand your points, and thank you for sharing your experience. I can only imagine how frightening that was for you and your family. I’m sure that you formed your opinion with the good intention of not wanting others to be in that situation of possible harm/violence.

I just hope that reason will prevail in the investigation (and consequent trial) and not just speculations and manipulation from those in the position of political power and influence.

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I am hoping that justice will prevail. I am also saddened by the fact that he was killed :frowning:

Kelangan makita na baril yung hawak? This is the real world. When you’re unsure, preserve your life and the lives of others.

The policeman did NOT shoot the man’s head. He shot the body, and the called for an ambulance. If the intent was to kill, he would have shot him in the head or shot him more than 2x and not bother call an ambulance.

Ilan sa video nabilang mo na may baril? Ilan sa video ang nakatutok yung baril?

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@fretburner. Yes. Kailangan makita na baril yun hawak. Andaming nakasulat sa taas na nagpapaliwanag bakit kailangan yun.

Imposibleng di tumawag ng ambulansya. May mga camera na.

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What if plastic na baril? Kelangan i-inspect kung totoo?

@fretburner Sorry :disappointed: I feel like you’re just making this argument for the sake of arguing. I will not indulge you. :hihi:

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It’s not argument for argument’s sake. My point is, the policeman cannot “afford” to be 100% sure that a real gun is pointed at him.

You don’t give a “suspect” an opportunity to take a shot at you and you’re not supposed to give him a “fair fight”, so to speak, more so, to put yourself in more danger than he is in, you being a law enforcement officer.

What the ex-soldier should have done is simply to comply.

Also, what some people here has pointed out as their basis that there was no “unlawful aggression”, is clearly out of context.

Read the case here: PEOPLE OF THE PHILIPPINES, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. JIMMY RUBISO, alias “ALOG,” Accused-Appellant.

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So are you saying the police should shoot when they don’t feel completely safe? They are policemen, they’ve had more training in dealing with situations like this. They have more tools available to them, not to mention the exact state of our legal system (and our leaders) are likely leaning towards their exoneration in incidents like this.

Is there a legal basis for your statement? Kasi hindi naman to wild wild west ah. :joy:

I speak primarily from the point of view of a typical Filipino citizen, yung may pangangailangang lumabas every week or so to buy supplies for my family. And this incident brings so much fear, pain, and uncertainty. I don’t know about you, but it seems you fail to see the other side.

Yes @fretburner, you are arguing for argument’s sake. Stop quoting yang mga real-life, real-life nonsense mo. You are clearly choosing your facts and using/skirting the law (and common sense) when you feel like it. Nasa Peyups.com ka, wala sa Facebook or sa Twitter.

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Unjustified because the element of unlawful aggression wasn’t present to justify self-defense on the part of the police, as cited by the legal bases above.

Police/military should have been educated on elements of self-defense and trained to handle crisis situations such as these, so I don’t buy that they panicked, etc. Actions of the police after the shooting were also questionable as the crime scene was not preserved (bag of victim was taken from the crime scene).

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[quote=“markku, post:24, topic:2595, full:true”]
So are you saying the police should shoot when they don’t feel completely safe? They are policemen, they’ve had more training in dealing with situations like this. They have more tools available to them, not to mention the exact state of our legal system (and our leaders) are likely leaning towards their exoneration in incidents like this.[/quote]

Exactly. Their training kicked in that’s why the policeman shot the guy.

read page 32: ROE

A. RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

  1. The use of force/firearms is justifiable only by virtue of the Doctrines of
    Self-Defense and Defense of a Stranger.

  2. The use of force/firearms shall be applied only as a last resort, when all
    other peaceful and non-violent means have been exhausted.

  3. Only necessary and reasonable force shall be resorted to and applied
    under the following circumstances:

a. self defense
b. defense of a stranger
c. to subdue/overcome a clear and imminent danger

PNP Operational Manual

7.5 Application of Necessary and Reasonable Force

During confrontation with an armed offender, only such necessary and reasonable force should be applied as
would be sufficient to overcome the resistance put up by the offender; subdue the clear and imminent danger posed by him; or to justify the force/act under the principles of self defense, defense of relative, or defense of stranger.

7.6 Factors to Consider in the Reasonableness of the Force Employed

A police officer, however, is not required to afford offender/s attacking him the opportunity for a fair or equal struggle. The reasonableness of the force employed will depend upon the number of aggressors, nature and characteristic of the weapon used, physical condition, size and other circumstances to include the place and occasion of the assault. The police officer is given the sound discretion to consider these factors in employing reasonable force.

RULE 8. USE OF FIREARM DURING POLICE OPERATIONS
8.1 Use of Firearm When Justified

The use of firearm is justified if the offender poses imminent danger of causing death or injury to the police officer or other persons. The use of firearm is also justified under the doctrines of self-defense, defense of a relative, and defense of a stranger. However, one who resorts to self-defense must face a real threat on his life, and the peril sought to be avoided must be actual, imminent and real. Unlawful aggression should be present for self-defense to be considered as a justifying circumstance.

[quote]
I speak primarily from the point of view of a typical Filipino citizen, yung may pangangailangang lumabas every week or so to buy supplies for my family. And this incident brings so much fear, pain, and uncertainty. I don’t know about you, but it seems you fail to see the other side.[/quote]

Majority point of view mo? Lakas mo makahingi ng basis, e ano basehan mo na you speak for the majority?

You should fear the police if you do NOT have any intention to comply with law enforcement, or, if you are committing or about to commit a crime. Otherwise, the police is your friend, is your protector.

What is nonsense is making accusations and bringing in things like “wala ka sa facebook or sa twitter” which has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.

I have a cousin who is a police chief in some town (ongoing PhD) and I have more friends who are policemen, so I know the challenges they face on a day to day basis.

Things on the ground happen so quickly and if they make a mistake, it could end their lives in an instant.

The legal basis above is OUT OF CONTEXT.

The case G.R. No. 128871. March 18, 2003. PEOPLE OF THE PHILIPPINES, Plaintiff-Appellee , v. JIMMY RUBISO, alias “ALOG,” Accused-Appellant…

is a civilian-to-civilian crime, NOT a law enforcement officer trying enforce the law on an ECQ violator.

"Prosecution eyewitness Alejandro Pulomeda testified that on November 6, 1992, he went to Jaspe Metal Craft Industries (Jaspe) at Pavia, Iloilo to canvass the price of a rice thresher. He intended to ask assistance from his friend, Serafin Hubines who was working at Jaspe. Then, he went straight and saw Hubines busy putting a bolt on a rice thresher. Hubines was in a squatting position. While he was walking toward Hubines’ direction, he saw herein appellant also approaching Hubines’ from behind. He noticed that appellant’s left hand was wrapped with a towel. As appellant walked closer to Hubines, he unwrapped his hand revealing a handgun of unknown caliber, and shot Hubines. The latter still managed to stand but he was again successively shot by appellant…

the defense has a different version.

Appellant has been working as a welder at the Jaspe Light and Steel Industries. On November 6, 1992, while he was welding a tiller, Serafin Hubines, Jr. passed by and kicked it. When he confronted appellant, the latter asked, “Why, do you want to fight?” Then Hubines boxed appellant on his chest. He fell down on a sitting position. At that point, Hubines pulled his gun. Appellant immediately stood up and held Hubines’ hands. They grappled for its possession and both fell on the ground. Then the gun exploded. According to appellant, he was not sure who “caused” the shot. He noticed that many people approached them. Appellant lied down on his stomach and covered his ears. That was the time he heard three or more shots. He stood up and saw Hubines lying on the ground full of blood. He walked a few steps and met PO3 Danilo Opong. Appellant told the latter that he was only defending himself.

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Binasa mo ba at all yung mismong ikaw ang nag-quote? Nasaan ang imminent danger? Na-establish ba yung existence nung firearm bago nila binaril yung tao?

Ano exactly yung threat dun sa mga pulis, before they shot the victim? Irrelevant ba sa kanila yung sinabi nung ibang tao dun sa area suggesting exactly what they’re dealing with so they can react accordingly?

May kaibigan akong pulis na mas mataas pa sa police chief in some town na rank. Anong point?

Pero ayun na nga, madami kang kaibigan na pulis. Did they ever claim that every Filipino policeman behaves with integrity and honesty, na lahat sila malamang eh magkikita sa langit after life on earth? :wink: Mahilig ka sa real world, nakikita mo ba ilang pulis ang nasasangkot sa mga illegal na bagay? Hindi ba kahihiyan yun para sa iba sa kanila na malamang eh mabubuting pulis naman?

Di naman to debate about all policemen, or yung friends mong mga pulis. It was simply OP asking for other users’ POV on the matter.

I had to say that because your behavior is more apt for those communities. You were making justifications without citing sources, wouldn’t accept differences in opinion, and just simply would rather antagonize instead of educating others on your position.

Majority? Sorry, hindi to Philippine elections. Hindi din to popularity contest. Walang silbi kung sino ang maraming sasabihin. Patay na yung pinag-uusapan natin, napatay ng pulis. Nothing will change that.

I do not claim to speak for the majority, but you were obviously not respectful of the others on this thread. Nabigay mo na yung side/opinion mo, di mo na kelangan i-convince yung iba.

Giving sources and basis for your arguments is appropriate especially in a sensitive and polarizing topic. We may not agree, but we also want to learn about others’ positions, and to understand why their opinion may be different.

But we should always be respectful of others.

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Yes, Florendo did aim for his body. We don’t know exactly what his intent was for doing so. I haven’t read any definitive information yet where the two bullets landed, did they land on his upper abdomen, chest area? I guess the medicolegal death investigators are still working on the autopsy report.

On gunshot fatality: range between the shooter and the victim, entry and exit points among others are to be carefully considered aside from where the shooter aimed his gun at (forensic pathology). Depending on the circumstances, some gunshot wounds to the head are survived, some instantaneously kill. Some people recuperate from gunshots in parts of their body apart from their head, some don’t especially when the bullet hits a vital organ.

The Factors in This Case
Police officer: Police Master Sergeant Daniel Florendo, Jr., 4 police trainees under the HPG where also present in the scene
Number of aggressors: 1 - Winston Ragos
Nature and characteristic of the weapon used: There was no weapon used as far as my judgement can tell, unless we now consider his hand going inside a bag ‘a weapon’. Ragos’ sling bag was seen taken by the police in the CCTV footage, thus contaminating the potential evidence.
Physical condition of Ragos, Florendo, his cohorts, the time and location can be seen on the video, although witness accounts and other forensic evidence must be reckoned with.

Your point that it was Florendo’s own judgment call to defend his physical safety (and of others) by shooting Ragos twice is understood as you’ve put it clearly. That actually was what he considered reasonable at that moment, albeit it can be deemed unreasonable under jurisprudence. I am (as I suppose we all are) interested in how the criminal and administrative investigation of this incident will unfold, how ‘the threat on his life’ would be justified with evidence, and how the judges will weigh the reasonableness of Florendo’s acts. Guess we have to wait for now and remain vigilant as usual.

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Okay, I give you legal basis that involves a policeman then:

“Self-defense, whether complete or incomplete, cannot be appreciated as a valid justifying circumstance in this case. For, from the above admitted, uncontroverted or established facts, the most important element of unlawful aggression on the part of the victim to justify a claim of self defense was absent. Lacking this essential and primary element of unlawful aggression, petitioner’s plea of self-defense, complete or incomplete, must have to fail.” (Mamangun v. People, G.R. No. 149152, 02 February 2007.)

Ok, I’m done here.

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Let me say it in a different way… If you are going to wait until you are 100% sure that it is a loaded gun with the safety off, then it’s already too late.

This is the entire gist of my exchange with the lady when I went something like “check kung plastic ba yung baril?”

Like I said: I understand how difficult the job was of policemen, and especially every “shoot or don’t shoot” scenario.

Do yourself a favor and try to watch those training/simulations in youtube.

No sources? I just gave you 2 sources and you can youtube/google the phone cam video.

Ikaw, ano source mo na ikaw ang boses ng majority? That you represent the ordinary people?

“If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen”

This is a discussion board. People are supposed to come here, post/lurk, and discuss.

How was I disrespectful?

You forgot: the 4 police trainees are NOT carrying firearms as they’re NOT allowed to.

Homicide charges have indeed been filed and the policeman will have to defend himself.

I expect nothing but an acquital and the policeman be back doing his job, making a living and feed his family.

Here are the facts of the case you cited:

Mamangun pointed his .45 cal. pistol at the man, who instantly exclaimed, “Hindi ako, hindi ako!,” to which Mamangun replied, “Anong hindi ako?” Before he (Ayson) could say anything, Mamangun fired his gun, hitting the man who turned out to be Contreras. He (witness) approached the victim who was then lying on his left side unconscious. He brought down the victim and they rushed him to the hospital where he died at about 10:00 o’clock that same evening.

The defense has its own account of what purportedly actually transpired

Thinking that the person was the suspect they were looking for, Mamangun chased said person. They announced that they were police officers but the person continued to run in a crouching position until Mamangun caught up with him and shouted, “Pulis. Tigil,” whereupon the person suddenly stopped, turned around, faced Mamangun, and raised a stainless steel pipe towards the latter’s head but Mamangun was able to evade the attack. This prompted Mamangun to shoot the person on the left arm. All three claimed that it was only at this point that PO2 Cruz and Diaz approached Contreras who told them, “Hindi ako. Hindi ako.” Mamangun went near Contreras and asked, “Why did you go to the rooftop? You know there are policemen here.” Contreras was thereafter brought to the hospital where he died.

Having admitted6 the fatal shooting of Contreras on the night of July 31, 1992, petitioner is charged with the burden of adducing convincing evidence to show that the killing was done in the fulfillment of his duty as a policeman.

The justifying circumstance of fulfillment of duty under paragraph 5, Article II, of the Revised Penal Code may be invoked only after the defense successfully proves that: (1) the accused acted in the performance of a duty; and (2) the injury inflicted or offense committed is the necessary consequence of the due performance or lawful exercise of such duty.7

Concededly, the first requisite is present in this case. Petitioner, a police officer, was responding to a robbery-holdup incident. His presence at the situs of the crime was in accordance with the performance of his duty. However, proof that the shooting and ultimate death of Contreras was a necessary consequence of the due performance of his duty as a policeman is essential to exempt him from criminal liability.

As we see it, petitioner’s posturing that he shot Contreras because the latter tried to strike him with a steel pipe was a mere afterthought to exempt him from criminal liability.

We see no plausible basis to depart from the Sandiganbayan’s findings that there was no reason for the petitioner to shoot Contreras. The latter was unarmed and had already uttered, “Hindi po ako, Hindi po ako” before the petitioner fatally shot him on the left arm. Prosecution witness Ayson, who was then behind the petitioner when the latter shot Contreras, testified that to the victim’s utterances, the petitioner even responded, “Anong hindi ako,” and immediately shot Contreras.[8] As correctly observed by the Sandiganbayan:

Basically, the SC did NOT believe any word the policeman said. The policeman immediately shot the victim after even acknowledging “hindi ako”.

Super different scenario. Especially since a video in the case on topic, is present, and is the best kind of evidence in the defense of the policeman.

You’d also note that there’s such a thing as “performance of duty”. Furthermore, the policeman found guilty by the SC did not even give an order to the victim (the SC did not believe the “Pulis, Tigil” claim).

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You said this so I gave you a policeman-civilian case on self-defense.

The account of the defense you quoted was “self-serving” and “biased” according to the Supreme Court.

On performance of duty, the Supreme Court in Mamangun v. People said, “To be sure, acts in the fulfillment of a duty, without more, do not completely justify the petitioner’s firing the fatal gunshot at the victim. True, petitioner, as one of the policemen responding to a reported robbery then in progress, was performing his duty as a police officer as well as when he was trying to effect the arrest of the suspected robber and in the process, fatally shoot said suspect, albeit the wrong man. However, in the absence of the equally necessary justifying circumstance that the injury or offense committed be the necessary consequence of the due performance of such duty, there can only be incomplete justification, a privileged mitigating circumstance under Articles 13 and 69 of the Revised Penal Code.” A privileged mitigating circumstance cannot justify the killing, hence the conviction of the policeman was upheld by the Court.

:yawn:

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You have to question why they needed to arrest him in the first place? Dahil minura sila? Dahil quarantine violator? Does either scenario warrant the use of a gun?

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Killing “quarantine violators” will never be justified. This gives a chilling effect to civilians who regularly saunter out for family supplies, me included. As to the soundness of the police procedure employed in that event, I reckon jurisprudence is not on the aggressor’s side.

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1st shot on the leg could have been reasonable and necessary but the 2nd one was not. Specially because the shooter is in the offensive position. He was actually in control. Until the training or ich to double-tap kicked in, perhaps with assurance of authorities that we are in war, kahit pandemic naman talaga ang kalaban. Baka hindi din sila that trained to handle situations concerning PTSD, because even when the shooter already knew of the state of the ex-soldier, he added more pressure. It seems he already decided early on when he declared, “Wala akong paki-alam, papatayin ko 'yan”.

I hope malaman din kung planted ang baril lalo’t walang nakitang baril sa video at ang mga eye witness. Kahina-hinala din na kinuha ng mga police yung bag, ipinasok sa sasakyan, when it was not their job to do so.

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Like I said, the SC did NOT believe a single word by the policeman considering there were 4 of them, armed and were chasing the victim.

It’s a very different scenario than the recent shooting of the ex-soldier. The FACTS of the case will also come first and foremost. And the application/interpretation of the law will be very different.

The video where the ex-solider CLEARLY (1) defied the lawful order to “dapa” by the policeman, (2) aggressive stance towards an officer, and (3) his attempt to draw something - gun or not - from his sling bag will be the primary consideration and I am very confident any judge will side with the policeman. There’s NOT going to be a “he said, she said” in this case because of the video evidence.

It does not matter how they ended up in the situation. The moment a law enforcement officer orders you to lay on your tummy, you have to comply. If you don’t comply, more so, you put up an aggressive stance, it’s the duty of the officer to subdue you.

Whether or not the scenario warrants the use of a gun depends on the level of threat.

This is from the PNP Manual:

7.6 Factors to Consider in the Reasonableness of the Force Employed

A police officer, however, is not required to afford offender/s attacking him the opportunity for a fair or equal struggle. The reasonableness of the force employed will depend upon the number of aggressors, nature and characteristic of the weapon used, physical condition, size and other circumstances to include the place and occasion of the assault. The police officer is given the sound discretion to consider these factors in employing reasonable force.

RULE 8. USE OF FIREARM DURING POLICE OPERATIONS
8.1 Use of Firearm When Justified

The use of firearm is justified if the offender poses imminent danger of causing death or injury to the police officer or other persons. The use of firearm is also justified under the doctrines of self-defense, defense of a relative, and defense of a stranger. However, one who resorts to self-defense must face a real threat on his life, and the peril sought to be avoided must be actual, imminent and real. Unlawful aggression should be present for self-defense to be considered as a justifying circumstance.

The police officers, in that very scenario, is NOT afforded a chance to subdue the ex-soldier by means of say, tackling him to the ground, and what not. Hence, the order “dapa! dapa!”. Had he only complied, he would have still been alive.

you cited a case that’s actually against your earlier points. lol. did you even read the case? :rotflmao:

edit: I’ll bite.

hi fretburner, please refrain from further embarrassing yourself by insisting on that PNP manual. you’re right, it says there “self-defense” however please note that the self-defense mentioned there is based on article 11 of the Revised Penal Code, so you can’t just spout quotes from that PNP Manual without even explaining what Self-defense in that context actually means.

The mention of relatives and friends from the PNP does not help your case at all since you’ve only shown where your biases are coming from. Which is actually enlightening, because I would expect UP students/graduates to properly argue their points with sound arguments. However after learning where you’re coming from. I get it.

In any case, please do read the case you keep on citing, do not gloss over the first few paragraphs and most especially the last part where the Supreme Court explained its decision.

and to think, nasa issue pa lang ata tayo ng unlawful aggression, paano pag napunta na sa reasonable necessity nung force na ginamit :thinking:

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